The "gay thing" comes up here quite a bit...and Binxly is a friendly champ of the pro-gay cause - here's one of his recent posts:
"Again, I'm not saying certain aspects of homosexual culture aren't sinful. MANY aspects of it are. However, those aspects are sinful in acts (infidelity, promescuity, etc) are not *due* in part to homosexuality and are flaws even heterosexuals are prone to. In turn, I think it's not that we should condone such acts because a minority group may be more guilty of them than the majority (heterosexuals, and even they are catching up) but rather, we shouldn't focus on condemning the act by condemning homosexuals, but rather promoting fidelity in love and monogamy as well as strong family values, regardless whether the couple is hetero or homosexual. And yes, homosexuals are capable of being great, objective, and functional parents and can run a successful family unit, I've seen it first hand actually."
I'm a Christian fundie on the other side of Binx on this - I'm also way past a ton of other fundies because I actually "support" gay marriage - also peds, beastiality-types, etc...
I've put a ton of thought into the topic - largely because of the MSM pushing the gay agenda quite aggressively over the last couple of decades - and now culture is swinging significantly in their favor...
So now all that's "left" to conquer it seems is the fundies like me - and God:)...
If God changes His mind on it - then I'm all there with Him - so good luck on that liberals everywhere - no one can say you don't dream big! However it's been an eternity so far and the word has never changed yet - but there's always a first time for everything...
I wish you well, I'm even going to help you now - if you want this so badly then all right, let's get it over with. Just be careful what you pray for - you always get it - and pretty much never as you had imagined it would be...
Here's my meager opening salvo to try and get the ball rolling - this is some of what I have come to understand so far about the mechanics of morality disagreement - right and wrong, etc:
Emotions are automatic - they come to us in a split second as a natural reaction to stimuli - basic emotions include attraction, fear, anger, frustration, fatigue, pride, joy, etc, etc...
True "emotions" are technically not judgements yet - they are just "feelings" - feelings are neither "right" nor "wrong," "good" or "bad" - they just are...
"I FEEL scared, I FEEL happy, I FEEL angry, I FEEL surprised...
(please note: if you think you "feel" like gays are evil - that's actually a judgement - not a feeling - if you can replace "feel" with "think" and it still makes sense then you have expressed a judgement, not a feeling)
Example:
I "feel" angry - I "think" angry - doesn't work...
I "feel" hate - I "think" hate - does work...despite the bad grammer - it's the logic...
Now on to the rest of the first split first second...
Now we can start making some judgements - choices - what do we do about our feeling(s)? How do we react? Do we freeze - like a deer in the headlights? Do we move? Should we have gay sex? Some reactions are "instinctual" you may say - but I submit (it's just my opinion, yes) that that's really still just part of the emotion - instincts only last for a split second - and then it's immediately on to choices, choices, choices- and you have many millions of choices at this point...
So how do we decide? What do we draw upon? Many things there at our disposal...
How about the the rules we have accumulated? That might help. The guidelines? Suggestions? The training and experiences we've had - I have had 43 years to draw upon in my case...
First on my "should check" list: WWJD?
Second on my "should check" list: What do I WANT TO DO INSTEAD?
Usual winner: What do I WANT TO DO INSTEAD?
Now let's talk about Binxly (sorry Binx, but I will have to make a few bald-faced assumptions just for now)...
First on his "should check" list: WWJD? (he's a Christian like me)
Second on his "should check" list: What do I WANT TO DO INSTEAD?
Usual winner: What do I WANT TO DO INSTEAD?
Now that we have that straight...
Oh, boy...
Looks like me and Binx have a different interpretation of the Bible...
Hmmm....what do you know - ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY DOES!
So now what?
I know! Let's set up a democracy and discuss these differences rationally, calmly, without too much judgement yet - maybe more asking of questions - attempting to understand each other, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER...
So again it's more about QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS...
After a few months of that...let's will see what happens...
VITAL TO NOTE: "Understanding" each other does not mean we agree with each other. We will all never agree on most things - we can agree on some things, and then simply learn to co-exist with the rest of it - bummer dude but that is just the way it is...
It appears that God has created us to disagree - not sure why - but there is some purpose I'm sure - He also appears to have created us to LEARN HOW TO CO-EXIST POSITIVELY as we learn to co-exist positively...
Negative co-existence tends to manifest itself in such things as murder, beatings, lynchings, bombs droppings, planes flying into buildings - much in the way of very unpleasant stuff...
Postitive co-existence is discussion, dialogue - leads to learning, solutions, progress - good stuff - much better...
The classic liberal way is PROGRESS (please bare with me for a second, my fellow conservatives) - it's a good idea to improve our co-existence, our stewardship of the land, our relationship with God, etc...
It's a bad liberal idea to change God's rules...
The classic conservative way is to preserve great traditions that have stood the test of time - it's good to forgive, don't lie, don't steal, honor your folks, create no graven images, try not to covet your neighbors wife - there's at least 10 or so really important ones that kinda branch out from there...
It's bad conservatism to hold up good progress, or revert back to ancient evils...
----------------------------------------
SO NOW THAT I'VE ESTABLISHED ALL OF MY GROOVY RULES AND FRAMED THE DEBATE...
----------------------------------------
Binx - how do you FEEL ABOUT GAY LOVE?
Before I make any judgements at all, I feel CONCERNED...
If my feeling of CONCERN was a color it would be yellow - like a traffic light warning of danger - if my feeling of CONCERN were an animal it would be a protective mother bear seeing her cubs straying into dangerous areas of the forest - if my feeling of CONCERN was a shared experience for all of us it would be like the worried parents at the beginning of the drug experimentation of the 60's... generation...
How do you feel about it? Please pick just one feeling that fits best - scared, humored, angered?
Is there a color that might describe your feeling? An image? An animal? A shared Experience you and I have had? This will help me understand you.
Until I understand you I can't really start to judge how to co-exist with you and vice versa (and everybody must judge everybody to some extent eventually - yes, every body must get stoned:)...
Example for ya: I imagine you feel __________ ....?
Sad maybe? For your lonely and persecuted gay friends...?
Please let me know how you feel. No judgements yet please. Just express your feelings for now, and I will attempt to understand them. And if you like you can attempt to understand mine.
Talk to you soon...
TM















Comments Policy
To answer you TM, I have
December 17, 2007 - 16:43 ET by BinxlyTo answer you TM, I have various feelings on the issue. They varied even more when focused on a timeline of my past 6 years. 6 years ago I had no couth in using terms like 'fag' and 'gay.' I still really don't but that's because I don't believe in PC in the sense that a term can be hijacked by a majority, and therefore be off limits because at one point it was used as slander (lest we not forget, in many european nations and other subcultures here such as the punk culture, refers to cigarettes when they hear the word 'fag.')
Anyways, 6 years ago, I was mortified by homosexuality. I felt it immoral, wrong, and just plain dirty. I had assumed all homosexuals were these permiscuous club hounds who trolled the streets and gay bars for sex. Now, those kinds DO exist, and those are the ones I DO believe are committing sin knowingly; they are chasing after a sexual satisfaction, needing to be satiated at any cost, as opposed to someone with an alternative lifestyle who is actively seeking out a monogamous, intimate connection. Then a friend of mine 'came out.' The 'coming out' was a big shock since women LOVED this guy and he always had the cutest, most sought after women flinging themselves at him, and nothing in his demeanor, speech, or any personality traits pointed to anything stereotypically homosexual.
I freaked. I'll admit it. I felt he was wrong, and then it hit me, 'why was he wrong?' I first went to the bible. Then I re-read certain parts of the bible such as sodom and gammorah, and other parts that seem to take homosexuality to task, and I found alot of new things when reading it. Now, I am NOT saying the bible does NOT condemn homosexual sex, because it does in at least one part, come out and claim that it is 'evil,' but I found it funny that many self-professed bible scholars I had encountered (not people here, people I know in real life) love to refer to sodom and gammorah when speaking of the evils of homosexual sex from a religious standpoint. After reading it, I had caused quite a few red faces, and even perhaps a few people to re-evaluate their views on the issue, simply by mentioning that:
#1: in the story, nowhere does it claim the sin that is punished is the sole act of homosexual sex. The sin was that the people were a violent lot, and that men and women laid down with one another, indescriminately, basically the sin punished was the sin of violence and having one heck of a 'pile on' orgy. I read that story, which again is meant more as a parabole (Im sure I misspelt that, forgive me) and I took from that story that the moral was NOT that the town was punished because of homosexual sex, but rather, due to their lack of appreciation for human life and the intimacy that is meant for two people when they come together physically.
Also, before I leave the bible portion of this, remember, as you mentioned before TM, in older versions of the bible, shellfish consumption is seen as an equal sin as well. My take on that is a more logical one. Shellfish are not the safest (or safe at all) of seafood to consume raw. I believe during this time, those who consumed raw shellfish, often fell ill to natural poisons found when consuming raw and poorly prepared seafood, and due to the lack of science at that time, and abundant reliance on faith, we as people could only logically assume that God was punishing those who consumed the coveted shellfish. I feel that homosexual sex *may* be cautioned against for similar reasoning. We all know that right or wrong, the act of homosexual sex between two men creates an opportunity where transmission of sexually contracted diseases is greatly increased in odds than transmission through heterosexual sex. This is also not a 'God' issue, there is more than enough scientific and logical information explaining why this is so. However, back in the days before contraception and 'safe sex,' it is not too far fetched to believe those who engaged in homosexual sex were in turn more apt to contracting disease. Again, with the lack of modern science (or any science) back then, it would also be not too far fetched to believe that people saw this, much alike those who fell ill to eating shellfish, as God's way of punishing those who committed 'heinous and unholy acts.'
there's my take on the bible's take, and that is the point where I realized perhaps we as christians lost the overall message and became too obessed with creating rigid rules as opposed to simply relying on our faith, reserving judgement, and treat one another, no matter how different, in the same ways we would wish to be treated. Maybe it is fear of damnation or merely xenophobia that causes us to want to exclude others who are unlike us, but for me, admittedly, I realized alot of it was rooted in the latter.
Anyways, I began asking my friend more about himself, how he knew, is dating the same process? Is there the same ackward moments before a kiss? Is someone the 'girl' and someone the 'guy'? Basically I was the 3 year old, desperate for knowledge about a subject that most would rather just judge by its cover as a bad book, obviously not on God's booklist to them and therefore useless to glance at anything but the cover (ie the stereotype and the label of 'gay.') He was more than happy to oblige with answers. He actually was happy someone finally cared enough to ask such questions, and I think he finally felt safe and content that he had someone who he could talk to and knew wouldn't judge him.
Over the year I hung out with him from time to time, met alot of people from 'that side' of society, homosexuals, drag queens, twinks, bears, and all this confusing terminology and again, I almost fell back into the 'hate' trap. Most of his friends behaved like the spoiled girls on my sweet 16, that awful show that MTV so lovingly presents so our children have the warped perception that a brand new 80,000 dollar car is a typical 16th birthday present from your parents and that if P.Diddy doesnt play your birthday, you have bad parents. They seriously would just troll the clubs, talk about random, no strings attached sex, and would even hit on me, until finally I would explain that I'm not gay, I just am not homophobic so being around a primarily gay crowd didn't bother me. I also noticed MANY of them are prejudice against those who claim they are 100% straight. Many feel that we are all too 'prudish' and that sex should not be held on the pedestal that it is.
Now, *that* IS evil. To forgo the consideration of other's feelings, and physical/emotional health is inexcuseable. Like I said, I began to hate homosexuals. Where there was fear and a dislike, it was now hate. I felt like they WERE this big conspiracy, trying to 'gayify' our culture and turn everyone into selfish, sex crazed people who will 'screw anything with a hole,' forgive my graphic wording. However, I saw John when he was with his boyfriend, and then met a whole different side to that subculture. John's boyfriend's friends were also gay, and yes, they made jokes about it, gabbed about the 'hot boys' in the media and celebrities, but the difference was, these people had couth, they were normal, they had consideration for others, morals, conept of family values. Basically, they were just like me, except, well, they liked men and WERE men. It was at this point I saw proof of the saying that there are two sides to every coin, and noticed the problem that occurs with stereotypes.
Shortly after that I became aquainted with a new friend. She was someone I had known for years, but had known her as 'him.' I had always noticed she was more 'girly' and soft than the rest of the guys, and did indeed have a much girlier style (longer, styled hair, girls jeans, tight clothes, lean figure and a borderline obsession with keeping themselves as fit and 'compact' as possible) but I had never thought that she was, well, 'she.' Again, I was in a position of uncertainty. This time not so much from a religious standpoint, but rather a logical standpoint. I figured there was no other explaination than the fact that they were either crazy, or perhaps just confused. I mean, the thing they always tell you is 'what would you do if you woke up tomorrow and you were the opposite sex?'
I never *really* asked myself that question. I always figured 'well, it wouldn't happen, I am who I am, I think you're just confused, people don't get born that way.' Also, like many here, I knew there was info on it, but I didn't want to hear it. I feared the floodgates. I felt that even IF there were a few legitimate cases out there, they were necessary sacrafices to keep transexuality as an undesireable because of how high the prevelance is of fetishists in that area and crossdressers who would see this as an opportunity to just go parading out in the streets in flambouyant drag, acting loudly and in a distracting manner, and basically causing havok in our public realm. I realize now, that is wrong.
Here is why, on both a gay and transexual point. Now I am saying this next bit is by no means racist, just a hypothetical situation to prove my point of tolerance.
If African americans were the highest demographic convicted and proven to have committed violent crimes, and the crimes were much lower during slavery, woul that be justification enough to again take away the rights of ALL of a minority simply because of the acts of some within that minority?
Many would say 'of course not' and they would be correct. You can't lock up ALL redheads if we found out that red heads had a high potentiality for crime.
This ties together with this. Are there *many* homosexuals out there and many subcultures who promote the lifestyle of no responsibility, free sex, and the destruction of moral values in exchange for complete physical freedom? Yes. Does that mean ALL are like that? No, absolutely not. If transexuals were accepted as their identified gender, would that allow many over-the-top types to flood out of the woodwork and claim they are women too for less than legitimate, proven reasons? Yup. However, is it fair, that to avoid that, that we force those who are legitimately gender dysphoric to 'fit' into their birth gender roles merely because someone thinks its 'weird?' No, absolutely not, it is completely unfair, *especially* with science today, which has pretty much proven that most transexual brains are closer in biology to their identified gender rather than their birth gender.
To sum it up, you ask me, how do I *feel* about homosexuality/transexuality?
I feel as you said, scared, but mine is a more hopeful-yet-aware approach. I'm aware that condoning such things *will* cause some of the less than genuine and less than moral aspects of both subcultures to surface and thrive, but they exist in our own camp too. There are plenty of heterosexuals who engage in group sex, many who are irresponsible with sex and participate in sexual acts only for their own pleasure, with no regard to their partner(s) health, emotional investment into the act, or even the decency to do anything but bolt out to door as soon as the sex is over.
I feel scared, but I think acceptance is going to be a net gain of good. Sure, there will be good and bad alike, but as I said before, if we focus on the ACT that is wrong (infidelity, promescuity, lack of concern for health and emotions of others) then we are not singling out the subcultures themselves, but rather, the act that perverts said subculture. Afterall, if a person has an infection in their hand or another body part, you don't just cut it off, you do your best to save the limb.
And yes, I am concerned with this issue because of my friends John and Ashlee. They both are great people, good morals, have great family values, and both are better people than most I've met, gay, straight or whatever.
so we both seem to feel
December 17, 2007 - 18:52 ET by TruthMongerso we both seem to feel concerned - good...
and you also feel afraid...
Please tell me more about your feeling of being afraid...
Can you compare it to some shared experience or situation you and I might have had - like a parable (that's the spelling:) - an illustrative example...
for example are you afraid your friends will be persecuted and harassed, attacked, hated - kind of like the fellow in Wyoming who was beat to death i believe?
do you feel like a protective parent maybe? can you go more into your feelings of fear on this?
i fear gay bashing and hate as well - especially as a result of scripture interpretations and so forth...
TM & Binx
December 17, 2007 - 21:05 ET by Clear thinkerI've got a question for you and Binx.
A couple of weeks ago I was having an argument with another NB poster. It may even have been Binx, but I'm in the first stages of OFS (Old Fart Syndrome) so I'm forgetful.
Anyway... I wrote: "Gay sex is wrong and you know it!" Should that post be deleted if someone finds it offensive?
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
I would say no - but that's
December 18, 2007 - 11:34 ET by TruthMongerI would say no - but that's just me...
Of course not. Look, I
December 18, 2007 - 13:11 ET by BinxlyOf course not. Look, I preach tolerance *and* acceptance, but I'm also not going to nit pick which things should be tolerated. As I said before, as long as it is not causing intentional harm or distraction to another. Its my personal opinion that *anyone* who holds prejudice or judgement over another should be free to feel that way, but not free to force their opinion as law onto others.
Basically, what you feel is your own and no one has the right to punish you for that. However, if you feel one way, and express that opinion, you *are* opening yourself up to the same scrutiny. I would equate it best to the 'don't dish it if you can't take it' principle. We all have ideas of what is right and wrong. I don't try and force my opinions onto people, but when I have proven fact, I bring it up as such. After all, you're free to believe that 2+2 = 5 or any other number, but fact shows indeed that 2+2=4. The tradeoff there I guess is, while you're free to feel however you wish, if there if fact proving the opposite, you're still free to feel how you do, but people are also free to think you are a stubborn, voluntarily ignorant person.
If someone would delete a post like yours saying gay sex is wrong, that would be wrong. However, again, its a two way street. If we allow that, we also must allow someone to say things like 'we all know all christians are hate mongerers' or 'all republicans are greedy old white men.' or 'All liberals are unethical, secular misfits who want only to kill God and then kill the moral structure our nation informally functions upon.'
Basically, you're free to say whatever you wish, be it crazy, sane, right or wrong. The only problem I see in today's world is people defend free speech when their point is being silenced, but when the opposing sentiment is expressed, they are less apt to fight fo the freedom to say what the opposition is saying.
it's very important to
December 18, 2007 - 17:42 ET by TruthMongerit's very important to understand that feelings and opinions are different - feelings we can't control - opinions we can...
that's the whole point of this forum...
to slow down the process here and just dwell on feelings for a while before we start to get into opinions about them and actions based upon them...
some people feel gay or gender identity problems, they can't stop that...
but they can control what they do about those feelings - it is their decisions entirely...
It's not their decision to have the feelings...
It is their decision about how to judge those feelings, whether to act upon them or not, how to act upon them, etc...
that is the struggle with this issue...
I think Binxly may have
December 18, 2007 - 03:14 ET by tracheostomyI think Binxly may have missed a few points that merit consideration, as I used to belong to the exact scene he is referring to.
- A stable relationship can be faked, hetero- or otherwise. Is your friend John still with that same boyfriend? Only you can answer that. Regardless, any relationship (hetero- or otherwise) that makes its own rules in regards to conditional love is not a true relationship.
It's not about, "I promise to stay with you if. . ." A conditional vow is not a vow to begin with. So the relationship contract is rigged at the outset.
- You cannot identify with a gender you were never born with; only a preconceived notion of it. It's like I tell the transgendered before they start swingin' at me, "You've never had menstrual cramps and you will never have a uterus." That's why they call it cosmetic surgery.
- Similar to the above example, a homosexual relationship must sacrifice one identity in favor of the more dominant one. As a result, many also sacrifice the fragile wall of their colon in the process (something meant to absorb moisture; not secrete, and trust me, KY isn't a cure-all). Result? The relationship is a pre-negotiated inequality of master & slave, some of it more outwardly visible than others).
- The "standard" is founded on a shifting foundation to begin with. It is a sliding scale of morality with no compass. Standards are by their nature. . .consistent, reliable, and trustworthy.
You genuinely feel sympathy for these others with whom you wish to feel accepted in return, but everyone can only agree on how behavior is conducted in public (and only tenatively at that). You still differ on how behavior is conducted in private. The thoughts, actions, and behaviors of someone in private say far more about their inner-character than in public, wouldn't you agree?
- Because of that ambiguity, there is no real moral foundation other than societal mores/taboos or societal rule of law. If there is no God, then do what thou wilt. You have no reason not to partake in their behavior. If there is no God, then you have no reason not to use others for personal gain.
And if there is no God, then where is the crucified body laid in the tomb; sealed and guarded with the authority of Rome?
For as such who identify themselves as you describe shall not inheirit the kingdom of God. We are all born with a sin nature that manifests itself in any number of ways, but they're all under the same condemnation.
Appeal to them to come out from among them, repent, and learn what love really means. True love is truly unknowable until you have died to self.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Ok, initially I was going
December 18, 2007 - 09:21 ET by BinxlyOk, initially I was going to just give up after reading this, as it is just business as usual for the group that I pointed out to Shawn that can only ever see it their own way, but for the sake and faith I have that *maybe* you may one day be more open-minded, I'm going to break down alot of what you built just now (sorry, not out of malice, but when something is built on such fragile things as your basic, perhaps less informed opinion, it is not the steadiest of foundations.)
First and foremost, yes, John is still with his boyfriend. Also, I fail to see how if a homosexual union dissolves, that it somehow 'proves the point' that it is somehow less entitled or more inferior than a heterosexual union. Heterosexual couples, fiance's, AND even hetero marriages end, even after years of 'happiness.' Does that mean they are sinners because they decided to get out od a situation that no longer made them happy? I'm definately not one for divorce as a settlement for a mild disagreement, but I think what you are saying here is wrong, or perhaps the point is just lost on me through a bad example of comparison.
As for conditional vows, I'm pretty sure I see what you're saying, and you're correct in regards to the fact that telling someone they MUST act a certain way specifically or the union is over is indeed wrong, but a marriage is not exactly unconditional love. Truth be told, the only person I think most can feel 'unconditional' love toward is their children. What you are claiming, it would seem, is that unless a person is willing to put up with ANYTHING, they are not a legitimately loving couple worthy to be joined together in matrimony/union.
- You cannot identify with a gender you were never born with; only a preconceived notion of it. It's like I tell the transgendered before they start swingin' at me, "You've never had menstrual cramps and you will never have a uterus." That's why they call it cosmetic surgery.
I'm sorry, this is a load. Therapists, biologists, and Psychologists and sociologists will all tell you it is. True, most of the psychological science community is leery to touch this subject matter, and many do still want to consider it a 'mental defect' to the degree of things like schitzophrenia and bi polar disorder, but literally in the past 3-5 years, scientists have found proven evidence that it is not in that realm of 'mental defect.' What you claim is that because a transexual woman has never felt 'natural cramps due to menstration' that they are somehow less legitimate. What about women who have mild cramps? Are they now 'less' legitimate? What about a woman who feels like a man? Because she's never felt an erection she all of the sudden can't know the societal and mental things about being a man? I mean, this is the weakest of your arguments, and, thankfully, if you're willing to be open-minded, there is a TON of info on the legitimacy of this situation. That is, unless you only seek out the one side of the issue.
The great thing about the transexual issue is even the haters who see these people as abominations have agreed, it is not a mental defect persay. It is an issue of incongruence of brain to physical, but it is shown, as I've stated before that a transexual female (male to female) has had a brain chemistry within 3-5% variation of that of a genetic female and is MUCH more different than the brain of a genetic male identifying as heterosexual.
I know what's next, the same question:
Well aren't they just gay and confused about identity? Where did the homosexual brain fit on the spectrum?
The homosexual brain was the most interesting in information yield about the variations of brain chemistry among hetero, homo, and transexuals. The genetic woman's brain was signifigantly lower in certain levels and the transexual female was similar or even slightly below that of a genetic woman, both signifigantly lower than the levels of a heterosexual male. A homosexual male, however, has shown not only to be closer to the heterosexual male range, but actually, on average, is *higher* levels than that of a heterosexual male.
So this studies show that there is indeed weight to the idea that many of these people were born with a brain whose chemistry does not coincide with their physical sex. There are even strong theories which seem to show that during the early stages of gestation, the fetus can become exposed to high levels of estrogen, altering the brain during its formation, and causing a 'gender rift' between the two.
Its not that I'm trying to be rude or talk down to anyone on this issue, but this DOES occur. We all know the roles of male and female. I think most of us would be mortified to have to live as the other gender, that is a reality these people deal with on a daily basis. As for its consideration as 'plastic surgery,' it certainly doesn't make it invalid. Got a deviated septum? Need that nose job so you can breathe correctly? That's plastic surgery. Burn yourself terribly bad? Getting a skin graft so people aren't mortified by your face? That's also plastic surgery. Born without certain body parts? Prosthesis is available to help you live a more 'normal' and easily integrated life? That's plastic surgery.
They call it that primarily because it isn't necessary to sustain life. It doesn't mean it isn't necessary to keep someone functional in life, but if it isn't *required,* and it's absence would result in death, it's considered cosmetic or plastic surgery. I know one of these people, and I swear to you, she is a girl. I know that marks me as either claiming God messed up with her or that he is a malicious being who put this fate onto her on purpose, but I am claiming neither. I *do* know, however, that your take on this particular part is ill-informed (again no offense) and I think you are going more on what *you* feel rather than going by logic, science, and proven fact. Like I said, are there fakers? yes. Do they make it THAT much harder to approach this issue and how to handle it? Absolutely. However, you can't just say 'you're all screwed because we don't want to bother figuring out who's genuine or who isn't, so, as of now, you're all illegitimate in your perils.
I also agree on the point that a litmus test of character is best taken in someone's private life rather than public. As children grow to adults they learn 'couth.' Or rather, the behaviors that are acceptable/unacceptable in public, and are taught to keep the more 'undesireable' traits to their private life, urged to do their 'venting' in private, not public. However, as I said before, there are many homosexuals and transexuals who are better people overall, in private *and* public, than some heterosexuals, but you claim that because of God, and his *supposed* hatred and exclusion of people based on who they choose to love, not their character, that they are still 'tainted' and 'will not recieve the kingdom of God.' I'll say this again to that, whether it be in the book or not, it is *not* your place to make that judgement. If God *is* infallible, then he *can* change his mind at *any* time. Afterall, if one is infallible, they cannot commit wrong, even if it is indeed 'wrong.' So therefore, one may see going back on one's 'word' as a sign of error, but if an entity is truely infallible, then they can never be 'wrong,' even when they 'change their mind.'
Appeal to them to come out from among them, repent, and learn what love really means. True love is truly unknowable until you have died to self.
If you mean to say what I think you are saying here, it is you who may need guidance my friend, not them.
Binxly
December 18, 2007 - 09:30 ET by shawn228Hey weren't you the one one that told me to not pursue this topic? :-)
Looks like you debated with about 5 others after I left, now this thread has spawned. You are right though, there are some with some real strong feelings about what nature meant for us.
I'm still amazed
December 18, 2007 - 09:36 ET by sarcasmoWe've seen all this typing and not one mention of Larry Craig?? Oh yeah, I forgot, he's 'not gay!' ;) I love YouTube...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Yeah, I was going to let it
December 18, 2007 - 10:42 ET by BinxlyYeah, I was going to let it alone, but the comment about transexuals not being real, or not being able to 'know they feel like the opposite gender' because of something so stupid as 'they;ve never known cramps' or for trans guys, 'they've never had an erection.' The physical is not the main driving force behind this. Thats the biggest problem, I think too often the opponents of homosexuals and transexuals are so against it because they see it as sexually driven only. It isn't an issue of solely physical. Afterall, I know plenty of guys who'd LOVE to wake up with boobs tomorrow. As they say they'd 'never leave the bathroom!' :-P
The main issue IS, however, how society views them and how they integrate. For example, Ashlee is a non-sexual person. She hasn't even kissed someone or been on a date in 2+ years. If it was merely about sex, she wouldn't care or need to change to become who she knows she is, because if you aren't having sex, and its driven by sex, then where's the logic there? I mean these are issues that exist autonomous of the intimate/sexual realm; its about personal comfort and acceptance. Lord knows most guys would be supremely unhappy if they were regarded as women are in today's society, and same goes for the converse situation. I mean we strive for equality these days, but the gender roles still exist and the funny thing is, the prevelance of transexuals seem to prove that these 'gender traits' are inborn and part of our brain and psyche.
You're right though Shawn, I probably am wasting my time with most, but TM is a good friend of mine and I enjoy talking on these topics with him because I feel we both learn from each other's position and while I'll never believe there is sin in something unless I see actual sin, and TM believes sin exists where the book claims it does, we still have productive conversation and it never disintigrates into insults and blanket, rude remarks.
thanks but I'm still just
December 18, 2007 - 11:40 ET by TruthMongerthanks but I'm still just looking for your feelings first Binx - not necessarily your judgements about your feelings...
you said you feel scared - can you compare it to something?
is your feeling maybe "protective-scared" like a parent or friend seeing a loved-one attacked or something like that?
Do you feel kind of like a hero maybe fighting for Ashlee? Protecting Ashlee? Seeing Ashlee through a dangerous passage of enemies maybe? I really shouldn't speak for you but I'm just trying to give you examples of what I'm trying to find out from you - trying to get way back to your emotional reactions about the situation - not what you think you should do about it - just how you feel - scared? angry? disappointed (maybe in "free" America? or maybe in conservative Christians being so judgemental? etc?)
I said I feel scared, but
December 18, 2007 - 13:55 ET by BinxlyI said I feel scared, but I'd say its more a cautionary fear. I'd equate it to how a parent feels when sending their kid off to college. I view 'college' as the 'tolerating of these subculture lifestyles.' The idea being that, yes, there is a risk that allowing and condoning a person to explore those feelings they feel *can* lead them to sin (promescuity, meaningless sex, drugs, multiple partners and risk of STDs) but its the same risk each parent takes when sending their child off to college.
Basically, the analogy here is this. 'College' is the 'risk taken when accepting someone's right to explore homosexual or transexual feelings.' Much like college in a social sense, some people cannot truely find who they are unless they take a risk like many do in college, and the risk many take when identifying as a transexual or a homosexual. The child going to college is the person in question. Like I said, in Ashlee's case for example:
She was miserable as a man. Hell, no one ever really even saw her as a man, at best a 'boy' because she never really exuded any male qualities aside from obviously she dressed the part being that she was raised a boy, and aside from the physical appearance (and even then she looked like a 'pretty boy') she was pretty much a girl. We all would joke before she began making the necessary changes she needed to in life, we would joke how she was so girly, and even would say she would've made a better woman than a man, or jokingly would ask if she was a 'girl spy who was undercover, infiltrating the male social construct.' Sure, at first we *all* were still weirded out by the news when it came out though. Some friends, sadly, responded rudely, one even violently, and those friends ran fast and far from her, forgetting that she was indeed always the same person inside, but now she was making changes to basically reflect who she truely was. She had these feelings since she was 5 frickin' years old, that like BLEW my mind.
At that point, we felt like parents with a child wanting to go to college. Deep down, even though we'd miss our friend we refered to as 'him,' but we *knew*, all of us, that this truely is and was who Ashlee was, regardless to whatever name we called her in the past. We often wondered if we should warn against this, try and stop her. However, we knew the risks, 'what if she met a guy who was into her because of what she was, and then, like many occasions in such situations, freaked out and killed her? What if she ran off to some place like Cali or Vegas, where its easier for those people to be accepted, and eventually traded in her morals and family values in exchange for acceptance?
In the end, you need to let them go. Just like a parent not wanting to let their child free to go to college. Sure they may take the wrong path, yes, such a decision can be prone to a miserable life, BUT, what if, what if Ashlee DOES meet that great guy? What if she goes on to become an upstanding citizen and achieves her dreams as a designer? What if, 15 years from now, she moves into a community with her new husband and children, and no one even realizes she wasn't born a woman? Would it matter then? Would it make her less legit?
I say no. These people were born with the brains of the opposite gender. They are quite literally women in a man's body and vice versa for the other side of the coin. I'll admit, I'm MUCH more sympathetic to her plight than say homosexuals or the plight of my friend John.
To sum it up, I am scared about homosexuals because I feel that, personally, I have met MANY irresponsible, spoiled, selfish homosexuals who are only about instant gratification at any cost, and only a few ones who were 'normal' by all other moral standards aside from who they prefered intimately. Does that mean the majority are sinful like the ones I met? Not necessarily. However, as a big proponent for personal freedom, and painfully aware that if you ignore the minority in favor of the majority, or in this case, judging a subculture as a whole by the action of the majority, and punishing all, including the minority, for the acts of the majority, that those in the minority are tossed aside and their voices and rights ignored.
Basically, just because 8 of the 10 bulls are violent doesn't mean they all are and all deserve to be put down. The fear though, comes from how to handle those who *are* the more selfish and perverted within the culture. If we condone homosexuality, these kinds can make their lifestyle more available as 'acceptable' but just like the comment on drugs and prohibition, I don't think being accepting of homosexuals is going to 'turn anyone gay.' In fact, I'm pretty sure most are born with said feelings.
As for the ashlee scenario, its only fear because of the same reason of minority vs majority, but in the other parallel. Most transexuals who go through 'transition' as they call it are usually 110% sure of who they are. However, the small minority whom are transvestites, drag queens, or crossdressers who do so for the sake of sexual gratification will demand equal acceptance as well. While this isn't a particular problem with me personally, they do tend to make people like Ashlee look 'less legitimate' and lead people to believe she is just a *very* convincing drag queen type, and not a woman who happened to be born with the incorrect physical sexual organs in congruance with her brain.
In closing, I don't see myself as a hero for Ashlee, but she is a wonderful, loving, and above all, NORMAL and *moral* person. She is quite literally just like every other genetic born female I know. She doesn't rawk out in ball gowns and heels, she doesn't have flambouyant hair and she even rarely wears makeup at all. She's just trying to live her life the best she can and I'm aware that many will look at her and see a woman and treat her as such, but once they find out she was born a boy, will throw away all comraderie they had built with her and trash it merely because she is a 'freak' to them. I assure you, she is *not* a freak. People born with mental deficiencies are not freaks. People born with incomplete or missing limbs are not freaks. That is just what God gave them, and they deal with it as they can.
In closing, Ashlee made her final point to me that made me overcome my fear of this situation and any doubt that she may just be a confused guy by saying this:
'Some people are born without legs, some are like me and born with the wrong brain, or wrong body, depending on how you look at it. In my case, I have grown up the past 23 years *knowing* I was a girl, trying my best to 'fit in' without compromising who I really am as a person. When a person is born without legs, they may never have KNOWN what it was to walk, just as I'll never know pregnancy, PMS, or any of the other dreaded femenine things women deal with. However, if someone born without legs is given a chance to walk, even if they aren't 'real' legs, would you blame them for electing for a procedure to allow them to walk? To feel more complete as a person?'
I said 'of course not...'
'Then how is my situation any different? I know who I am, but I am half a person because my life is not my life, I am not seen for what or who I really am, can you really tell me I'm wrong for wanting to feel more complete?'
I went silent, and soon after, I realized...
She's absolutely correct.
Ashlee is arguing the
December 18, 2007 - 14:45 ET by tracheostomyAshlee is arguing the following.
0.5 + 0.5 = 1
EQUALS
1 - 1 + 1 = 1
OR
0.5 + 0.5 = 1
EQUALS
0 + 1 = 1
Ashlee is incorrect. Show me where Ashlee's logical blunder comes from.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
That attitude leads me to
December 18, 2007 - 14:50 ET by BinxlyThat attitude leads me to believe our conversation on this issue is over. You feel your way, I feel mine. you feel I'm wrong as is Ashlee. I feel you are wrong and closed-minded. Because it is a stalemate, I suggest the two of us drop the debate. I don't mind if you try to convince others that you have the only correct answer, but your argument is ill concieved and lacks the weight that mine does, again, all in my own honest opinion.
Don't rush to put words in
December 18, 2007 - 15:04 ET by tracheostomyDon't rush to put words in my mouth. You gonna avalanche-and-run now?
No.
Ashlee is flip-flopping from an inner identity to the one she wears on her back. She automatically assumes that every disabled person automatically envies their peers for what they don't have.
And why does Ashlee think her appearance to others changes her self? Why does the outside shell define her?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
it doesn't change herself.
December 18, 2007 - 15:26 ET by Binxlyit doesn't change herself. As I said, its not like she was some shining example of an alpha male and then just switched it out one day for her female identity. Also, she is not 'flip-flopping,' she just presented herself as a man and did anything she could, save sacraficing the integrity of the woman she was, to 'fit' society's expectation that she was born a male and therefore can only ever BE 'male.' She isn't changing aspects of her physicality to 'create a female soul' either, she has the female soul, always has. As I said, even before we knew she was indeed 'she,' we knew she acted more like a woman than any man we'd ever met. We saw the pain she would have in her eyes when a situation in life proved to her again that she isn't considered 'real' and is, at best, an 'illegitimate woman' or at worst 'a faker, a false woman, a man pretending to be a woman, etc.'
She doesn't think the outside shell defines her, but she is a woman. If all women were treated as if they were men, I imagine a small minority wouldn't be bothered by it, but most would. Same as if tomorrow all men were treated as women. The divide between what is internal and what people judge her on (the external) was the problem. Back in the day people assumed she was either a gay guy or a model. Now people see her as the pretty girl she really is. I know that can be said to be shallow, but if thats true, the same can be said about the fat man who wants to diet because he doesn't want to be seen as fat.
Why was Ashlee living so
December 18, 2007 - 15:40 ET by tracheostomyWhy was Ashlee living so long to please society to begin with? Did she even have a self to be true to to begin with? And if she always had the "female soul", then at what point did her genetics switch on her?
What if the pain was rage against truth?
:erasing blackboard:
Let's just use Ashlee as an example.
1. Ashlee begins genetically male.
2. At some point (since five was it?) Ash's brain realizes it is more female than male. But the genes made the brain! I'm hitting a wall here and I'm asking for your help.
3. But is gets more confusing. At some point later, Ash decides to make the inner identity look more external. For who's benefit? How is this not a mere parts judgement? How is this not self-sexual discrimination?
4. The clothing changes, the parts change, and the outward becomes something different. It's like moving into a new house. But is the soul ultimately settled? What about those nasty chromosomes? What about the hormones that Ash has to borrow externally?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Well, its found that the
December 18, 2007 - 16:07 ET by BinxlyWell, its found that the makeup of the brain that defines 'how we identify' ourselves in an overall sense, is again, formed before the physical traits are 'decided' and are autonamous of the things that create our physical sex characteristics (again the links will be here later tonight if you so wish.) Also, like I said a 1000 times before, sure it may be petty, but you would be supremely peeved if say, lets assume you are male. You may be, but I'm unsure, so for the sake of example, we'll say you are. If not, just vice versa the situation and it will work that way too.
So you're a guy. However, everywhere you go, you get ma'amed, 'miss'd, and are basically seen and treated as female. Men hit on you and can't understand why you are disgusted. You are seen as sticking out like a sore thumb at your favorite sports bar, not because you're a woman, but because the level of comraderie you had with 'the boys' is now an ackward, stifled moment where the men now feel 'infiltrated' because they see you as a woman.
This may not have been the best illustration of it, but like it or not, most people would be MISERABLE if they had to live as the opposite gender for the rest of their existance. Now, that is why Ashlee is presenting herself as a woman, because she *is* a woman. Again, she doesn't take great lengths to force it unto people, it occurs naturally. She does not wear extravagant female attire, she does not 'get off' on wearing the clothes, she does not wear heavy makeup, in fact she rarely wears any. She is to anyone who is unaware when meeting her, seen as the girl next door. Most people who she meets think she's a great gal, and she certainly is. My question is, who is hurt in this scenario?
Honestly, who is the one who is hurt in this case?
How is my argument
December 18, 2007 - 15:06 ET by tracheostomyHow is my argument ill-concieved? Because you said so?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I'm not done exploring your
December 18, 2007 - 15:15 ET by TruthMongerI'm not done exploring your feelings first Binx - you're doing a great job! Thank-you...
I feel concern for her too - and I've never even met her...
I have a two-year-old son and I have had to let him "fall" and "hurt" himself alot - in order to learn...
I am fine with letting people "fall" and "hurt" themselves in the same manner - as long as their "fall" does not land on me:)...
That is another concern of mine here...
I am afraid of living in a culture that condones or accepts falling...
We all fall from grace...
The question is for me is should we legalize it? Condone it? Encourage it? Promote it? Celebrate it?
That is the question that arises also with drugs, prostitution, porn, gambling, peds, on and on and on...
I can't tell you those are wrong. I can tell you I believe they are wrong - harmful to us - they don't disgust me actually - if I wasn't a fundie I'd dive right in, too...
So when it comes to our civic laws and "free" civilizations the question becomes who determines what is harmful and therefore unlawfull...
We need dialogue, not propaganda and sob stories from both sides...
I need to know the feelings of my opposition on this...
I need to know how you feel...
How do you feel about drawing the line on moral laws - death, life, sex, marriage, property - do you trust the people to decide based upon a complete presentation of all sides of the issue?
Well, the overall scenario,
December 18, 2007 - 15:33 ET by BinxlyWell, the overall scenario, that could take time. If you got it, I can make time for it. As for Ashlee's case, and I know God would strike me down according to some people for saying it, but after the hours of conversation we've had, looking back on our friendship and her friendship in our 'circle' even before we 'knew,' and now, watching her interact in life, I've no doubt she's a woman. I know its impossible to explain exactly what that is or what it means. I just *know,* ya know? Maybe not. But its that lil feeling I have that mourns for her mistake.
And when I say mistake, I don't mean the path she chose, I mean that I mourn that she had to make it because she was not born as she *should* have been. Most will disagree with me on that and that's fine. I'm ok hearing opposition to that because I am 110% sure she is a woman, even if she happened to have the birth defect of being born with male physical traits.
Will the thing formed say,
December 18, 2007 - 15:43 ET by tracheostomyWill the thing formed say, "Why have you made me thus?"
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Good question. Why does
December 18, 2007 - 15:54 ET by BinxlyGood question. Why does God allow intersexed people to be born? Klienfetters (sp) syndrome? People who are born with that incomplete chromasome, effectively making them almost a 'non-sex' gender?
This can *also* be applied to other non-sexual, non-gender aspects. What about people born with mental deficiencies like mental retardation? Autism?
Those who are born without limbs or born partially deformed.
what of these cases? Just a few hundred years ago, there were those who would claim these were 'abominations' autonomous of God, perverted by some evil source, and therefore were damned and devoid of any potential for salvation because of their defect.
Do you agree with that?
(not being a jerk, I'm sure you don't, just trying to illustrate the similarities in both cases.)
But in Christianity, mine
December 19, 2007 - 00:22 ET by tracheostomyBut in Christianity, mine is a telling rhetorical question. Paul stated it for a reason. We do not blame God for how we are made. God did not speak you personally into existence. You are the product of a faulty chain of events. As am I.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
So if the chain of events
December 19, 2007 - 09:26 ET by BinxlySo if the chain of events itself is faulty, and therefore not 'God's fault' then why would God be so bitter if someone would wish to correct the errors of the faulty chain of events?
Because it's not a true
December 19, 2007 - 12:41 ET by tracheostomyBecause it's not a true correction.
Nothing truly living is added with the correction, only prosthetics. All it amounts to is subtraction. You are God's creation, but he is not held responsible for the fall.
But then you place no real value in the fall. But at the same time you claim to believe in God. I'd love to examine your systematic theology more closely.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
proper correction is the
December 19, 2007 - 14:01 ET by TruthMongerproper correction is the key
so what is "proper" correction?
Jesus is the only one who can "correct" us in my opinion - and Binx is a Christian, as is Trach - what are your opinions on that?
proper correction is the
December 19, 2007 - 14:04 ET by TruthMongerdouble - post
Merry Christmas!
you seem to identify much
December 18, 2007 - 15:50 ET by TruthMongeryou seem to identify much with birth defects on this...
it is true that many suffer more in the way of physical challenge then the rest of us, and there seems to be little ryhme or reason as to who gets what or how much, it's not "fair" some say - "why me, God?" that sort of thing...
My understanding of disease (which would include birth defects like ashlee's) - disease started with Adam and Eve - who were living in a perfect, disease-free, sin-free world, and then God's strict paradise-maintenance instructions were disobeyed - which brought sin into the world...
And now sin manifests itself in God's creation in many ways - disease being one of them...
It has nothing to do with some people being "good" or "bad"
It is completely random...
Some "good" people get sick...
Some "bad" people live extremely heatlthy and disease-free lives...
Disease is not God's punishment upon one person, disease is the result of man's choice to indulge in sin in the garden of Eden - we brought sin and disease into the world - not God...
And now we are stuck with it...
Ashlee suffers greatly like many...it's not her fault that she has the "disease" and feelings that she has...
We can only hold her accountable for how she chooses to deal with them...
So because she lives as a
December 18, 2007 - 15:56 ET by BinxlySo because she lives as a woman, her morals, good deeds, and altogether her good sense of character and kind soul mean nothing, merely because she lives as a woman?
(Again, since people think I stuff words in mouths, I'm not speaking for you or begging the question, I'm merely asking if you believe the above statement to be true.)
i do not believe that
December 18, 2007 - 17:39 ET by TruthMongeri do not believe that statement is true
i believe you said above that you could elaborate extensively on the democratic process dealing with this - can you tell me more about that - i do have the time:)
So because she lives as a
December 18, 2007 - 15:56 ET by BinxlySo because she lives as a woman, her morals, good deeds, and altogether her good sense of character and kind soul mean nothing, merely because she lives as a woman?
(Again, since people think I stuff words in mouths, I'm not speaking for you or begging the question, I'm merely asking if you believe the above statement to be true.)
What did I say about our
December 19, 2007 - 00:18 ET by tracheostomyWhat did I say about our righteousness again?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
what does that have to do
December 19, 2007 - 09:27 ET by Binxlywhat does that have to do with her living as a woman, the person she truely is?
what does that have to do
December 19, 2007 - 09:27 ET by Binxlywhat does that have to do with her living as a woman, the person she truely is?
Because you brought up her
December 19, 2007 - 12:34 ET by tracheostomyBecause you brought up her morals and good deeds to begin with. Either her entire identity is tied into her gender (the sum of your parts), or not.
If not, then why the obsession and resources devoted to the idolatry of cosmetic change?
If it is, then she is simply very self-centered and shallow.
But never-never beyond redemption in either case.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
this is way ahead of me -
December 19, 2007 - 12:44 ET by TruthMongerthis is way ahead of me - judging Ashlee? I haven't even finished getting through just the initinal emotions and feelings about homosexuality and gender identity with Binx and myself, yet...
i don't judge Ashlee or you or me at this point, Binx - I was just saying we can only hold people accountable for their actions...
feelings we can't control - they are emotions - our body reacts to stimuli - it's beyond our control - these are our feelings - Ashlee feels like a woman - but what we can control is what we do about our feelings - our judgements, decisions, and actions based on those feelings - or do you disagree about that?
it would be great to have Ashlee here to tell us how she feels - we can't really speak for her...
But you can tell me how you feel, and trach can also tell us how he feels, I will tell you how I feel - again I feel concerned for her, i feel compassion for her, my chief concern for her is not her gender identity though, it's more about what are her interests in life, how does she feel in general, where does she feel drawn in life - but again she would have to be the one to tell us here...
If you can get her to sign on with you sometime that would be great - i would like to know how she feels - I would also like to say that even though I am a Christian fundie I don't hate her, or look down upon her - I really just have the usual standard human interest in her just like you do...
TM, I really am happy there
December 19, 2007 - 14:48 ET by BinxlyTM, I really am happy there are people like you who are able to still have conviction in their beliefs yet still give the microphone so to speak to allow others to explain themselves and that you are able to keep an open mind on things yet still be tied to your faith based morals. That's a skill that most don't possess, myself included.
Good news actually, I just got a text message from Ashlee. As its pretty evident, me and trach are at odds over this, and the debate is only getting hotter and a bit more aggressive. I offered links but didn't have time last night to provide them. When I had read a post Trach posted last night, I got a lil disheartened and I felt so upset about it and admittedly, I began feeling like I'm just completely incapable of being able to have people listen to me. To trust me and trust that I don't jump on any issue until I'm sure Im well educated in it (alot of why I stick to certain issues on here, not because I'm one-tracked in my mind here, but because alot of other issues Im simply not 'hip' enough with to give some imput that is of anything but my own opinions.)
So, I felt defeated and I texted Ashlee, and selfishly I admit, I brought up a sore subject. I asked her 'how do you deal with these types? Do you just say sorry? Do they ever make you feel like you're threatened? Do they ever give you the 5th degree about how you're an abomination and need to 'see the light' and just live as a man?'
She called me up almost immediately after, and she told me alot. Yes, she's felt threatened before. Yes, many have told her how she's going to 'burn in hell' or how she's 'messing with the system, that reincarnation may be barred from her for her 'blatant disregard for nature's plan." She then told me that she was actually going to log on here herself because she said this place sounds interesting to her and that she had been looking for a political themed forum that wasn't so damned liberally skewed like Daily Kos and its ilk are.
So, according to what I'm told, tonight Ashlee will be here. We'll see.
thanks for the compliments
December 19, 2007 - 19:47 ET by TruthMongerthanks for the compliments and more importantly for sharing - and i think you also do a fantastic job of trying to "keep the gloves up"
I can't speak for Jesus of course but i have a hard time thinking Jesus would say those kinds of things to Ashlee...I'm not surprised she gets that alot - from Christians in particular...
I would love to hear her feelings...thanks for making the effort...
Is she aware of the beatitudes - where Jesus says "blessed are the persecuted" etc? Suffering brings us closer to God - Jesus suffered tremendous persecution and hatred, too - they spat upon him and mocked him as he died on the cross - I believe Ahslee can relate to the crucifixion of Jesus much better than most devout Christians can...
Or the footsteps poem - where it talks about Jesus carrying us when we are beaten down by the world...?
Does she know that Jesus spent much time with the "outcasts" of society and they relished his loving company?
Does she know that Jesus will imediately and completely restore her to perfection with just a short prayer of salvation? Nothing more is required - but highly recommended of course...the Bible is a good read every day - 2 or 3 minutes is plenty...otherwise one of the best Christian authors I know wrote a book called "The Jesus I Never Knew" - after the Bible that's #2 on my all-time reading list...
Thanks for being true to
December 20, 2007 - 07:25 ET by tracheostomyThanks for being true to your word, B. :cough: Good thing I didn't ask for a guarantee or anything. Too bad I won't get to see your pet definition of love or your belief statement. I was gambling that it was open-theism, but I wasn't sure.
BTW, you refuse to see where we're in agreement. The stereotype fundie is much more convenient in this regard, isn't it? That's why it's called a strawman fallacy. =D
- Never said "abomination", but now I'm tagged with it. No-no, just listen to what you wish I'd say, rather than what I actually did say.
- Never proposed any moral or behavioral change outside of repentance, and as a Monergist myself, the motive for that decision comes only from God.
- Never said "Hell" or "damnation" in her case. I have witnessed hardcore members of the GLBT repent well into their later years*, so far be it from me to assume such about a person I don't even know the age of.
- And as stated on another thread. To declare someone is going to Hell is to presume on the mind of God. I have never, and will never do that. I can only point to the break in the relationship as it now stands. It's something theologians call "common grace" and it's another aspect of His longsuffering and mercy upon all of us. I'm thankful I was shown common grace for 21 years before the Holy Spirit convicted my heart during a hotel orgy. Left without even taking a shower.
- I welcome Ashlee with open arms, and asserting again she is not the sum of her parts as the majority and the media view the transgendered.
- And I'm letting Binxly off the hook since he failed to deliver. I won't pursue this topic any further. Just remember that he fell short on defending his friends, his god, and defining love.
A pity too, I actually believed he had something for a minute there.
Just for a minute though.
-PJ
*The funny part is that they're never very high-profile when they come to the church. They still have the fear. But then how would I know this? Hm?
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Trach, good luck trying to
December 20, 2007 - 08:52 ET by BinxlyTrach, good luck trying to bait others, but you'll fail to bait me.
I dunno where I mislead you or 'failed to produce' since the only thing that is still missing are links. As I said, I spoke with Ashlee and she told me to just hold tight and she'd sign up and post them herself. She signed on last night, registered, and sent me a text before bed last night letting me know she still hadn't got her confirmation and I told her it took me a day to get mine. She will be here, and she will have the links.
So Trach, your arrogance and rude demeanor aside, what is it that you want me to answer? Seriously, just ask and you'll get an answer. Again, you'll just poo-poo it and probably spout more condescending drivel but hey, I'm quite honestly trying to explain to you my viewpoint on this and I'm sure Ashlee would be more than happy to explain her side. However, you can't ever gain anything from debate if you're too busy talking or reading into what others are saying only with the sole purpose of building your counterargument.
As for where we're in agreeance, I can see some slight grey areas where we do somewhat agree on this, the whole ethical standpoint and that people are not defined by the sum of their parts. My question to *you* is, since you openly believe people are not defined by the sum of their parts, then how can God define them as 'lost' because they wish to alter these parts, but the inside is still intact?
I think in all honesty, you're confusing this issue by bringing in religion into the situation that is more about social acceptance. Ashlee isn't wanting random guys to drool over her, she doesn't want to be a model, she doesn't want little girls to envy her, she doesn't want this for those selfish reasons. She is aware that as nice a girl as she is, and as talented as I *persona